bmj.com Rapid Responses for Tanne, 329 (7466) 588

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NEWS:
Janice Hopkins Tanne
Thiomersal doesn't cause developmental disorders
BMJ 2004; 329: 588-b [Full text]

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Rapid Responses published:

Health officials can believe anything they like: John Stone (10 September 2004)

Extremists: Dr John MM Rumbold (11 September 2004)

Re: Health officials can believe anything they like: eamonn clarke (11 September 2004)

Re: Re: Health officials can believe anything they like: John Stone (12 September 2004)

Re: Extremists: Magda Taylor (13 September 2004)

Re: The effects of toxic metals in autistic children: Dr Ellen C G Grant, Dr John McLaren-Howard, Laboratory Director, Biolab Medical Unit, 9 Weymouth Street, London W1W 6DB, UK (13 September 2004)

Evidence - chaos or Chaos?: Lisa C Blakemore-Brown (14 September 2004)

Re: The effects of toxic metals in autistic children: John Stone (14 September 2004)

Re: Extremists: Carol Johnston (14 September 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Health officials can believe anything they like: eamonn clarke (14 September 2004)

Little empirical observation: C Johnson (14 September 2004)

Health officials can believe anything they like - and so can Eamonn Clarke: John Stone (14 September 2004)

Off The Map, Out of Sight and Never Considered: Paul Shapiro (14 September 2004)

Re: Health officials can believe anything they like - and so can Eamonn Clarke: Lisa C Blakemore-Brown (14 September 2004)

Catching up with my reading: eamonn clarke (15 September 2004)

Two hundred tons of mercury per year, just to top up medical sphygmomanometers.: Phillip J. Colquitt (15 September 2004)

Things can hurt me: Lucas McCarty (16 September 2004)

Re: Things can hurt me: Carol Johnston (17 September 2004)

Re: Extremists: Ruth E Acaster (19 September 2004)

Re: Re: Extremists: Tony Floyd (20 September 2004)

Thimerosal Benifits: Michael, F. Wagnitz (22 September 2004)

Another customized study: Robert R. Bloch (22 September 2004)

Re: Extremists: C Johnson (22 September 2004)

Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: Samantha Line (22 September 2004)

Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: John Stone (22 September 2004)

Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: Ruth E Acaster (22 September 2004)

Re: Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: Samantha Line (23 September 2004)

Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: Lucas McCarty (23 September 2004)

Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: MC Feliciello (23 September 2004)

Children of loving mothers: Dr. Herbert H. Nehrlich (23 September 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: John Stone (24 September 2004)

Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: John Stone (24 September 2004)

Junk science?: Mark Struthers (27 September 2004)

Only Thiomersal or other factors too?: Chitra Pillai (27 September 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: Adam Jacobs (27 September 2004)

Has Adam Jacobs completely missed the point?: John Stone (27 September 2004)

Re: Evidence - chaos or Chaos?: stephen i black (27 September 2004)

Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: Michael, F Wagnitz (27 September 2004)

Re: Evidence - chaos or Chaos?: John Stone (28 September 2004)

Re: Has Adam Jacobs completely missed the point?: Adam Jacobs (28 September 2004)

Is there a rise in autism?: eamonn clarke (28 September 2004)

Re: LOSING SIGHT OF WHAT WE ARE LOSING SIGHT OF: Clifford G. Miller (28 September 2004)

Re: Re: Evidence - chaos or Chaos?: Samantha Line (28 September 2004)

Re: Has Adam Jacobs completely missed the point?: Graeme Johnston (28 September 2004)

Adam Jacobs' novel direction: John Stone (28 September 2004)

Re: Re: Evidence - chaos or Chaos?: John Stone (28 September 2004)

Basic Fundamental Question: L. Travis Haws (29 September 2004)

Graeme Johnston's Silicon Valley geeks: John Stone (29 September 2004)

Re: Michael Wagnitz, 27 September: John Stone (29 September 2004)

Swimming at the shallow end of the gene pool: Adam Jacobs (29 September 2004)

Re: Evidence - chaos or Chaos? Might As Well Be As the Science is Out to Lunch: Clifford G. Miller (29 September 2004)

Re: Has Adam Jacobs completely missed the point? WHY NOT, EVERYONE ELSE IS: Clifford G. Miller (29 September 2004)

Re: Re: Evidence - chaos or Chaos?: C Johnson (29 September 2004)

FIRST THINGS FIRST - STUDY THE MMR KIDS AS LIVING EVIDENCE: Clifford G. Miller (29 September 2004)

Re: Eamonn Clarke "Is there a rise in autism?": John Stone (29 September 2004)

stephen i black and the GPRD: a competing interest: John Stone (1 October 2004)

Who benefits from vaccines?: Carol Johnston (1 October 2004)

MRC seeks public involvement: eamonn clarke (2 October 2004)

Re: Who benefits from vaccines?: jan M perkins (3 October 2004)

Re: Re: Who benefits from vaccines?: Ruth E Acaster (5 October 2004)

Cynic or cynical of thimerosal?: John P Heptonstall (14 October 2004)

Re: Cynic or cynical of thimerosal?: John Stone (15 October 2004)

Re: Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: Camille Clark (29 October 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: John Stone (29 October 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: Dr John Rumbold (29 October 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: L. Travis Haws (29 October 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: John Stone (1 November 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: Dr John Rumbold (1 November 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: John P Heptonstall (1 November 2004)

Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: Theo Fenton (1 November 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: L. Travis Haws (3 November 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: Dr John Rumbold (7 November 2004)

Re: Cynic or cynical of thimerosal?: John P Heptonstall (8 November 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: L. Travis Haws (10 November 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: John P. Heptonstall (10 November 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: Aasa H. Reidak (11 November 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: Dr John Rumbold (11 November 2004)

Off topic but topical - flu vaccine: Peter Flegg (11 November 2004)

Re: Off topic but topical - flu vaccine: John P Heptonstall (11 November 2004)

Re: Rumbold: John Stone (12 November 2004)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Surely we are losing sight of what we all want?: L. Travis Haws (12 November 2004)

Re: Stone: Dr John Rumbold (15 November 2004)

thimerosal neurotoxicity: Donna M Arnold (10 December 2004)

What about other sources of mercury?: Peter Flegg (16 December 2004)

Re: What about other sources of mercury?: John Stone (17 December 2004)

Re: Re: What about other sources of mercury?: John Stone (19 December 2004)

Re: Re: What about other sources of mercury?: John P. Heptonstall (20 December 2004)

Re: Re: What about other sources of mercury?: Aasa H. Reidak (20 December 2004)

Re: What about other sources of mercury?: Peter Morrell (20 December 2004)

Re: What about other sources of mercury?: Jayne LM Donegan (21 December 2004)

Where is the support for using mercury in licensed pharmaceutical products?: John Stone (21 December 2004)

Re: Re: What about other sources of mercury?: Peter Flegg (25 December 2004)

Peter Flegg's defence is a non-sequitur: John Stone (26 December 2004)

Re: Re: Re: What about other sources of mercury?: John P. Heptonstall (29 December 2004)

Re: Cynic or cynical of thimerosal?: John Stone (31 December 2004)

Your life in their hands...: John Stone (10 February 2005)

Re: Re: Cynic or cynical of thimerosal?: John P. Heptonstall (28 February 2005)

Re: Re: Re: Cynic or cynical of thimerosal?: John P. Heptonstall (1 March 2005)

They've suddenly realised: IT COSTS MONEY: John Stone (2 March 2005)

They've suddenly realised: IT COSTS MONEY II: John Stone (4 March 2005)

Mercury damage to IQs and lives is incalculable: Ellen C G Grant (4 March 2005)

Re: Mercury damage to IQs and lives is incalculable: Aasa H. Reidak (5 March 2005)

Dental mercury is too toxic: Ellen C G Grant (7 March 2005)

Thimerosal is TOXIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!: Donna M Arnold (2 April 2005)

Re: Thimerosal is TOXIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!: John Stone (3 April 2005)

Re: Thiomersal is toxic: Graeme Johnstnon (3 April 2005)

Re: Re: Thiomersal is toxic: John P Heptonstall (4 April 2005)

Re: Re: Thiomersal is toxic: C Johnson (4 April 2005)

Thimerosal is Toxic: Donna M Arnold (4 April 2005)

Graeme Johnston's toxic red-herrings: John Stone (4 April 2005)

Re: Re: Thiomersal is toxic: L. Travis Haws (4 April 2005)

Re: Thiomersal is toxic: Graeme Johnston (4 April 2005)

The collapse of moral integrity in government, and at the top of the medical profession: John Stone (5 April 2005)

Heron et al: Rhetoric and Substance: John Stone (6 April 2005)

The Lost Generation: An Appeal to the Medical and Political Establishment: John Stone (8 April 2005)

Thimerosal and Autistic Symptoms: an MSDS from Amersham/US Bioscience: John Stone (8 April 2005)

Further Thimerosal Issues: John Stone (10 April 2005)

Thimerosal inhibits DNA methylation: Donna M Arnold (13 April 2005)

Re: The collapse of moral integrity in government, and at the top of the medical profession: John Stone (14 April 2005)

Re: Re: Thiomersal is toxic: John P. Heptonstall (15 April 2005)

A calculation relating to "low doses" of mercury: John Stone (15 April 2005)

Re: Thiomersal is toxic: Graeme Johnston (16 April 2005)

Re: Re: Thiomersal is toxic: Stevie M Gamble (17 April 2005)

'The Influence of the Pharmaceutical Industry' and the lack of independence of the Pediatrics reports: John Stone (19 April 2005)

Re: Re: Thiomersal is toxic: John P. Heptonstall (19 April 2005)

Re: Thiomersal is toxic: Graeme Johnston (20 April 2005)

Mercury amalgams and other teething troubles: Mark Struthers (20 April 2005)

A challenge to Heron and Golding: John Stone (20 April 2005)

Re: Re: Thiomersal is toxic: John P. Heptonstall (22 April 2005)

1988-91, the missing years: a letter from Prof Miller to the Sunday Times: John Stone (22 April 2005)

NIH New study on THIMEROSAL!: Donna M Arnold (22 April 2005)

New evidence inviting perhaps more spin?: Paul G Champion (22 April 2005)

Thimerosal and Blood and Brain Mercury Study: Alex Snelgrove (25 April 2005)

The official response to the Burbacher study: John Stone (26 April 2005)

The official response to the Burbacher study II: John Stone (28 April 2005)

The official response to the Burbacher study III: John Stone (2 May 2005)

No report of the Burbacher study: John Stone (2 May 2005)

Re: A challenge to Heron and Golding - and Andrews et al: John Stone (5 May 2005)

Re: No report of the Burbacher study: John P Heptonstall (14 May 2005)

Thimerosal is a neurotoxin injected into infants: Donna M Arnold (26 May 2005)

Mercury dose in UK injection double that previously disclosed in some cases: John Stone (15 June 2005)

Health officials can believe anything they like 10 September 2004

John Stone,
none
London N22
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Re: Health officials can believe anything they like

This is a perverse way to investigate sick children. Why does the British Government pay out good money for such absurd exercises in self- justification?
Will the data be made available for independent assessment?
Competing interests: Parent of an autistic child

Extremists 11 September 2004

Dr John MM Rumbold,
n/a
West Midlands
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Re: Extremists

It is clear that for the diehard antivaccinists no study will change their mind. Nearly all doctors are part of the conspiracy. I will gladly deputise for the antivaccinists if they ever want to go on holiday as it is very predictable what they will say about a particular issue.
Anti-vaccinists are now being marginalised as the public see how much research demonstrates the safety of vaccines, so we will see a rise in their activism.
Competing interests: None declared

Re: Health officials can believe anything they like 11 September 2004

eamonn clarke,
gp
cambs
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Re: Re: Health officials can believe anything they like

And so can anyone. Isn't it wonderful?
Competing interests: gp, parent, pro-vaccines, paid to vaccinate people, etc etc

Re: Re: Health officials can believe anything they like 12 September 2004

John Stone,
none
London N22
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Re: Re: Re: Health officials can believe anything they like

Eamonn Clarke responds to the title of my posting and ignores the text. Previously, under presently removed postings Dr Clarke went some way to admitting to me the uselessness of deciding these matters with epidemiology. In fact it is pure whimsy to decide it any other way but by looking at the children - it would not be inherently costly or difficult to investigate heavy metal toxicity in autistic children compared with a normal control group which is the last thing the Department of Health or the Medical Research Council are going to try. The danger is that they might actually discover something instead of producing another circumstantial, inpenetrable, unverifiable, time and money-wasting study.
Competing interests: As above

Re: Extremists 13 September 2004

Magda Taylor,
Director of The Informed Parent
P O Box 4481, Worthing, West Sussex, BN11 2WH
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Re: Re: Extremists

There are extremists in all areas of life - there may be a few extreme anti-vaccinists but equally there are a few extreme vaccinists too. Parents who have witnessed with their own eyes the damage the vaccines have caused to their children will not easily be reassured by all these 'so-called' studies. Vaccine damage is world-wide now, just go into any so-called normal school and you will see a wide range of conditions, from various allergies, asthma and a whole range of learning difficulties, ADD, behavioural problems etc. This is all the subtle damage that continues to increase as we continue to add more and more vaccines into the schedule. If Dr Rumbold and Dr Clarke are happy to have their own children vaccinated - well that is for them to decide. As for those parents who have studied the subject and have come to a very different decision - their decision should be respected. These decisions are not made lightly and I have observed over the 13 years I have been involved in the subject that many of the parents who take the time to look into this issue become more knowledgeable than their own GPs/health visitors/practice nurses. Regarding 'conspiracy theories' I feel that Dr Viera Scheibner's comment about that pretty much somes up my own personal thoughts. Dr Scheibner highlights that conspiracies require intelligence and that she prefers to talk more about ignorance and stupidity. I am not sure why Dr Rumbold feels that anti-vaccinists are being marginalised. I have observed quite the contrary - more and more parent groups are springing up through out the world and more parents are beginning to question the issue. Interestingly enough the anti-vaccination movement in Britain during the 1800s was headed by a number of medical doctors.
Surely we all share a common goal - good health!! It's fine going around blaming this virus and that bacteria for our health problems, but isn't it about time that we were adult about this and took responsibility for our own health. Health is the best immunity - good nutrition, exercise, fresh air, clean water, reasonable living conditions, emotional stability etc. I would urge all so-called 'health professionals' to study health. How can injecting a cocktail of virus, bacteria, mercury/aluminium products, formaldehyde, not forgetting the various animal and bird products, into a young babies body be a health procedure?? Especially when antibody levels are not an indication of immunity, I would urge all health professionals to start doing their own independent study of the subject - they may be surprised. There are many parents out there who now have to deal with the day to day care of their damaged child - I can understand why some will be very angry. They were not anti-vaccinists, they trusted their health professionals and handed their babies over to be so-called immunised. They were let down and now they have to live with the consequences, so try and understand their position. When I became a parent 16 years ago I did not have an opinion on vaccination, I just thought you had to do it and so started the programme. This is why so many parents have their children vaccinated. However once I started to study the subject and gain some knowledge I made very different decisions and now I would not hesitate to say that I am totally opposed to the whole vaccination procedure, and I say this not in an exteme manner but in a calm and confident tone.
Competing interests: None declared

Re: The effects of toxic metals in autistic children 13 September 2004

Dr Ellen C G Grant,
physician and medical gynaecologist
20 Coombe Ridings, Kingston-upon-Thames, Surrey, KT2 7JU, UK,
Dr John McLaren-Howard, Laboratory Director, Biolab Medical Unit, 9 Weymouth Street, London W1W 6DB, UK
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Re: Re: The effects of toxic metals in autistic children

John Stone is concerned that expensive epidemiological investigations may mislead by failing to investigate the biochemistry of either "healthy" or autistic children.
Our studies in 1981 and 1989 found significantly higher concentrations of copper and cadmium in hair in dyslexic children compared with matched controls.1,2 Sweat zinc was severely deficient in the dyslexic children, being 66% lower than that for control children. However, the control children in 1989 had much lower average zinc level than the children tested for laboratory reference range purposes 10 years before in 1979.2,3 Zinc deficiency allows accumulation of toxic metals which may be important causes of the increase in autism, asthma, dyslexia and hyperactivity in the past few decades.4,5
Biolab Medical Unit offers analyses of all toxic metal levels in blood, metal sensitivity tests and the effects of toxic metal substitution on proteins and some binding sites.6,7 Dr John McLaren- Howard presented the results of testing 61 autistic children at a Biolab Workshop for Doctors in June 2004, as he was attempting to find out which nutritional tests should be recommended. Among the 42 boys and 19 girls most were deficient in zinc and magnesium. Many were also deficient in copper, chromium, manganese, molybdenum and B vitamins. Therefore, essential fatty acids were also likely to be deficient. 16 children had DNA-adducts in leucocytes to malondialdehyde, 12 to cadmium, 9 to nickel. Three of the 61 children had DNA-adducts to mercury and one had DNA- adducts to lead. 37 children had antigliadin IgG antibodies, while 30 children had malabsorption detected by a D-xylose test. Malabsorption was most common in those with Asperger's type syndrome, 16 out of 18 children.
The zinc and magnesium lowering effects of maternal use of progesterones and oestrogens, parental smoking and alcohol use and parental dental mercury and other dental metal levels like nickel and tin, need to be looked at in larger studies. Mercury is a toxic metal whether it is in dental amalgams or in vaccines. If 5% of autistic children show evidence of signs of mercury exposures, this still means large numbers of children have been adversely affected. Clearly the increasing incidence of childhood diseases needs proper biochemical scientific investigations.
1 Capel ID, Pinnock MH, Dorrell HM, Williams DC, Grant ECG. Comparison of concentrations of some trace, bulk and toxic metals in the hair of normal and dyslexic children. Clinical chemistry 1981; 27: 879-81
2 Grant ECG, Howard JM ,Davies S, Chasty H, Hornsby B, Galbraith J. Zinc deficiency in children with dyslexia: concentrations of zinc and other minerals in sweat and hair. BMJ 1989;296:607-9.
3 Howard JM. Serum, leucocyte, sweat and hair zinc levels � a correlation study. J Nutr Environ Med 1990; 1:119-126.
4 Grant ECG. Autism, epidemiology and toxic metals http://bmj.com/cgi/eletters/327/7428/1411#43876, 17 Dec 2003
5 Grant ECG. Zinc and essential fatty acids in asthma http://bmj.com/cgi/eletters/329/7464/489#72650, 31 Aug 2004
6 McLaren Howard J. The Detection of DNA Adducts (Risk Factors for DNA Damage). A Method for Genomic DNA, the Results and Some Effects of Nutritional Intervention. J. Nutr. & Env. Medicine. 2002; 12: 19-31.
7 McLaren Howard J. DNA adducts in smokers. BMJ Rapid Responses, 14/1/2004 (http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletter)
Competing interests: None declared

Evidence - chaos or Chaos? 14 September 2004

Lisa C Blakemore-Brown,
Psychologist
UK based
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Re: Evidence - chaos or Chaos?

It's time for that paradigm shift that we've been leaping toward for some time now. But we are stuck, and it's anyone's guess what will sneak up on us to trigger that leap.
Scientific 'evidence' has been sold to the public and the Press as solely and only epidemiology. This is, of course, absurd, and well known by those of us 'at the coal face'.
It is our duty as clinicians to use our clinical judgement, taking various 'threads' or variables, into account, as well as the canvas or context, simplistically speaking, to explain the particular tapestry (1) which is presented to us in order to help us with the decisions we must make about the individual we are in the job to help.
Then if and when we see many examples of 'unusual' presentations, it is our duty to inform and disseminate this information through seminars, articles etc. and in some cases, through alerts to Government departments and our own professional bodies if it seems that there are unethical restrictions preventing such open discourse.
It has become increasingly astonishing to me, that there is no room or place for any discourse on 'unusual' presentations if the following tapestry applies:
1. They appear to be temporarily associated with vaccines 2. There appears to be a pattern with other 'unusual cases' 3. The clinician actually writes and says that.
Unusual presentations can be written about, of course, and we are allowed to discuss and write about the fascinating aspects of autism, the joy an Autistic child can bring, and it's even OK now to discuss genetics.
But woe betide the professional who dares to mention ... vaccines as a possible causal factor in some cases and clusters.
The blindingly obvious reactions to any triple vaccines - including both the DPT and the MMR (2)in many children are tossed aside along with the children themselves.
The ensuing chaos, based on ignoring these individuals and clusters, continually citing epidemiology as the only 'evidence' is palpable,(3) both in terms of the destruction of those children and their families and in the cost to the State of educating and looking after them for the rest of their lives.(4) There is a further process of destruction taking place - that of science itself.
The Canadian cardiologist, VS Rambihar, discusses the multiple valid perspectives in Chaos Theory, in which even one individual's experience is and must be regarded as valid. In a personal communication he said 'I share your concern that individuals and subgroups become submerged into the averaging in epidemiological studies'. We both recognise that 'even the tightest epidemiology may be completely wrong in any individual'. (5)
My 'tapestry' metaphor, at one level of explanation, aims to allow for that individuality to be interwoven into any given person's 'tapestry'. The threads/variables may appear to be exactly the same as another person, but there may be subtle differences which will entirely alter the ultimate emergent weave. This is how we can each be so individual.
If the similar component parts were the sum total of who we were as people - we would all be clones! Of course we are not, our individual rich tapestries define us, and are respectful of us. Years ago, the indigenous American descendant of a Medicine Man, right down in the Grand Canyon, after swapping his petroglyphs for my Tapestry book,told me a story about how his great grandmother would gather all the children around her feet as she wove a basket. He was one of those children.
She had pulled the strands of plant from the edges of the Canyon. When she finished weaving the basket, she handed it round to show the children and said:
'This is a living thing. Respect it'.
I said `Thats just like one way of looking at the 'tapestry' metaphor - it's about recognising and respecting individuality. But there are other similarities, for instance, it's also about how weaving itself (like the to and fro of reciprocal interaction, tragically missing in autism) promotes mutual respect as we engage with other'. He said `I know, thats why I want the book and that's why I told you the story'. His second name was Whatoname and I will never forget his wisdom, especially as it is so disappearingly scarce nowadays.
How can we ever address the experiences of individuals if we are not allowed to and must always and only turn our heads toward epidemiology? How can we ever learn? How can science move on if political interference prevents honest and open debate? How can we ever respect people?
'Epidemiology works on average for a population and can say nothing about the individual except in a probabilistic fashion. And in this regard unlikely things do happen' (6)
If we want to descend even more into chaos and moral oblivion, we can ignore individuals, ignore Chaos and complexity in practice and evidence - and kiss goodbye to ethical scientific practice and to any chance of advancement in science and society.
1. Blakemore-Brown LC Reweaving the Autistic Tapestry Jessica Kingsley Publishers 2002
2. Blakemore-Brown LC A Case Study - Read it then tell me there's no connection bmj.com 6th September 2004
3. California's experience: 'Chaos' Bucks County Courier Times http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/111-09122004-364443.html
4. High Cost Education Bucks County Courier Times http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/111-09122004-364395.html
5. Personal communication with VS Rambihar 2004
6. VS Rambihar MD Cardiologist Evidence Based Practice IN CONTEXT 2003
Competing interests: Expert in Autistic Spectrum Disorders

Re: The effects of toxic metals in autistic children 14 September 2004

John Stone,
none
London N22
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Re: Re: The effects of toxic metals in autistic children

Ellen Grant and John McClaren-Howard's Response is very interesting. Their answer suggests a complex of issues, and if it is right opens up an array of questions about the relation between neural impairment and environmental factors. Of course, it does not directly answer the question what the impact of an entirely unwanted dose of ethyl mercury might be on an 8 week old baby, but it does help to suggest that when it comes to autism such environmental factors could be hugely influential.
It remains the case that the idea that you could show by epidemiology that subjecting small infants to significant amonts of known toxins is safe is deeply suspect - this is surely the strategy of people trying get themselves off the hook after the event. And those that argue that it is, or ever was safe also endorse the safety of the rest of the immunology programme.
Competing interests: Parent of an autistic child

Re: Extremists 14 September 2004

Carol Johnston,
Carer
Carshalton, Surrey
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Re: Re: Extremists

Thought I'd do a quick reply whilst waiting for the paint to dry on my placard - ready for the next demo - whilst sipping my herbal tea.
When intelligent argument fails why not resort to name calling like "anti-vaccinists" and "extremists".
This somewhat primitive, yet effective method, creates diversion whilst getting a reaction.
As a child, when called names, I would respond "sticks and stones".
Why is it anyone who questions vaccination is termed an "extremist"? How frustrating for the professionals when parents like myself ask "What happened, why did my son/daughter go into massive developmental regression in the wake of a vaccine?
Because I question, seek answers I am termed an "extremist".
For the record some of the most cutting comments I have seen have been from professionals in defence of these vaccines. In response to a benign almost polite statement questioning the safety of a vaccine!
Just what is it that causes intelligent professionals to respond in such a way. Perhaps, maybe somewhere, deep down, there is recognition of truth and to openly admit - even to themselves the damage they have caused thousands of children - cannot be a comfortable thought.
The tactic adopted - denial at all costs - backed up by pointless epidemilogical studies, hoping that parents like myself will run out of the will to question and just put-up and shut-up, knowing that due to the demands of caring for our damaged children parents are fighting with one hand tied behind their backs.
However, even though some days I do think what is the point - one look at my kids and energy and hope springs eternal. A parent fighting for their child is a formidable force. Even if the whole world tells me that there is no proof this will not change what I saw happen with my own eyes. The government know that the welfare of our children stops us from taking more extreme action. But nonetheless the sense of outrage and anger is there. My children have been hurt by the MMR vaccine and they have been treated diabolically by those who should have listened when the first study by Andrew Wakefield first highlighted concerns regarding the role of combined vaccines in autism and PDDs.
No matter what anyone calls me - fact is that my children regressed after MMR.
As Madga says, "Surely we all share a common goal - good health!! ...... Health is the best immunity - good nutrition, exercise, fresh air, clean water, reasonable living conditions, emotional stability etc. "
As Joe Public becomes more informed and starts to turn away from vaccines and the numerous drugs to treat the conditions resulting from this damage - this will effect the profits of the drugs companies.
Many parents have turned away vaccines because the whole issue is becoming too politicised with spin from the government. The more studies like this seek to re-assure worried parents, the more many question 'just why the need to time and time again, deny the role vaccines in autism and reassure parents into accepting vaccines?' - "no smoke without fire" - there has to be something for the debate to have been raging as long as it has - they are not prepared to gamble the health of their children on spin from a government which has proved time and time again that it is more than capable of misleading the public.
I was never one for conspiracy theories - but the way in these children who have regressed have been ignored, raises the question(s) - why dont the MRC commission a study to clinically examine and look at these children to ascertain what exactly happened to them? Just what is it they are afraid of finding - perhaps the truth?
If it was not the vaccines that triggered autism in my children then what was it? Perhaps it is because parental anecdotal evidence points to vaccines as a trigger. Is that why the research is not being carried out on these children?
I for one would welcome conclusive proof that I could not have prevented the damage my children have suffered.
Until then studies such as this that just seek to deny the roles vaccines play in regressive autism without offering an alternative credible cause, are spin and a complete waste of taxpayers money! They serve a purpose in that for a time it diverts energies away from pressure to find a reason why this has happened to so many children. If study after study produced points to there being no link, then perhaps people will eventually stop listening to the voices of parents like myself and begin to believe the spin. However, one factor is that whilst more children are vaccinated then more will join the ever growing ranks of children damaged and their parents, once having come to terms with what they have seen will join the fight for justice and recognition for their damaged children.
These studies are a delaying tactic at best. Eventually the truth of what children like mine have suffered will become apparent to the world.
I may be an extremist to you but with all due respect, I am not the one who is commiting bio-terrorism on the immature immune system of infants.
What if there is a link? The benefits outweigh the risks argument does not apply here. A vaccine given to a healthy child then causes irreparable damage (which we all know they can do) but on a scale never before equalled in human history.
Mine is the voice of one parent. One way or another the truth will become apparent. It would be best for the government to be involved in finding that truth. It would be a good for later damage limitation, because they could always point to a positive response to parental concerns like mine. However, it seems that successive governments have not learnt from the mistakes of the past, like thalidomide and BSE (apologies, I can imagine the groans at the same old examples highlighted but history teaches us that we need to listen in order to arrive at truth).
Best go now, my placard is dry and my herbal tea is cold. Time for my medication, opps meditation - and to commune with the shrubs in my garden - we dont have any trees!
Vegetable rights and peace!
Competing interests: Parent of 2 ASD children post-MMR

Re: Re: Re: Health officials can believe anything they like 14 September 2004

eamonn clarke,
gp
cambs
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Health officials can believe anything they like

But I believe I did. And I don't believe epidemiology is useless in this debate. I think that large epidemiological studies are very useful to people who believe in that sort of thing (me, for instance). Likewise, I think that observational and recall studies are useful to people who believe in them. After all it was that form of study that 'proved' that breast cancer was caused by trauma to the breast.
The point I was trying to make in my previously deleted posts was that people believe what they believe and that there are closed minds on both sides of the argument. Calls for the one definitive study 'to rule them all' are useless. We both know that any such study will be torn to shreds by its opponent.
Having said that, I will defend the Medical Research Council and point out that they are funding a study into MMR and autism. (1) Also, an earlier paper suggests to me that perhaps we should be turning our attention away from mercury and on to lithium? (2)
Finally, I am happy to see our previous correspondence has been restored. (3) I was beginning to wonder if I was the BMJ impostor, and if so how I would know? I had recently dreamt of electric sheep.
1. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/1/2
2. Wecker,L., Miller,S.B., Cochran,S.R., Dugger,D.L. & Johnson,W.D.Trace element concentrations in hair from autistic children. J. Ment. Defic. Res. 29 ( Pt 1), 15-22 (1985).
3. Responses to http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/328/7442/773
Competing interests: GP and parent who is happy to have his children vaccinated.

Little empirical observation 14 September 2004

C Johnson,
parent
LA9
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Re: Little empirical observation

I don't know whether toxins like thiomersal in vaccines cause neurological damage; but my first common-or-garden layman's question would be, why on earth wouldn't they?
I have three children, and all have been through the full UK mass vaccination programme so far. The eldest, who has had both MMR and the booster, was floored by chicken pox last year. My mother - in her sixties and worked all her life in medicine - says she's never seen a case like it. His younger brother, who has been exposed to less of the programme, faired a bit better. His younger sister, who has been exposed to even less, sailed through the disease like it wasn't there.
My little empirical observation tells me that the mass vaccine programme scuppers my children's natural immunity to diseases which, if well nourished and otherwise healthy, they could deal with better themselves. I can't find out if my hunch is right because research into the possibility will not get funding in the present political climate. The political industry's answer might be to add a mass chicken pox vaccine programme... to protect the children, you understand; and then yet more vaccines for yet more common diseases which the growing vaccinated population can no longer cope with by themselves. I wonder if we'll look back in twenty years and rue the destruction of the population's ability to fight disease?
My children will not be having any more vaccines from this blind programme. We will treat them as individuals and vaccinate accordingly. E.g. I won't stick Hepatitis B into them as I don't expect them to engage in unprotected sex or intravenous drug abuse any time soon. I'll talk to them about such dangers instead.
Competing interests: None declared

Health officials can believe anything they like - and so can Eamonn Clarke 14 September 2004

John Stone,
none
London N22
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Re: Health officials can believe anything they like - and so can Eamonn Clarke

It would be a misunderstanding of my present concern to assume that I believe the rise in autism is necessarily entirely bound up with vaccination. However, I cannot accept that a programme which systematically injected millions of infants with substantial doses of mercury was being responsibly implemented. For years it was just blithely implemented without the least concern and any government sponsored investigation showing that it was all safe after the event is self- evidently compromised and suspect. Who are they to tell us?
Likewise any government sponsored investigation into MMR which systematically excludes the evidence of parents (Carol Johnston is the obvious present example) is also self-evidently compromised and suspect.
Competing interests: Parent of an autistic child

Off The Map, Out of Sight and Never Considered 14 September 2004

Paul Shapiro,
Grandpa To Vaccination Damaged Mathew
Great Neck, New York, USA 11021
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Re: Off The Map, Out of Sight and Never Considered

To all the genius' involved with developing, over seeing, approving, mandating, promoting, living off vaccines and vaccination, please address and justify, "the one size fits all" vaccination mentality and policy.
Please explain to this grandparent of a vaccine damaged grandson, why the size of the vaccine dose along with the toxic poison thimerosal is not adjusted proportionate to the weight and/or the development of the child. I never quite understood why the brilliant scientific and medical community fail to explain why it is this way?
Competing interests: None declared

Re: Health officials can believe anything they like - and so can Eamonn Clarke 14 September 2004

Lisa C Blakemore-Brown,
Psychologist
UK based
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Re: Re: Health officials can believe anything they like - and so can Eamonn Clarke

This week, pregnant women have been told that they should not touch even a drop of alcohol during pregnancy, as this could harm the unborn baby and lead to behavioural problems as the child grows.
Yet injecting mercury - and more - into the arms of infants - and maybe pregnant mothers - is waved away as perfectly safe, and if there are reactions - including `behavioural` problems - heads shake and `no explanation` can be given.
Can Health officials explain how they reach both of these positions?
Without wanting to appear cynical, could it be that the reason the former association is given a high profile is to set the stage for blame of the mother - yet again - for the alarming rise in behaviour problems since the late eighties???
So when a child is found to have a behaviour problem, the system (health, social and education workers) can easily be brainwashed into construing such presentations as causally related to abuse of the child through alcoholic poisoning during pregnancy - but by some miracle heavy metals don't even touch the sides.
Competing interests: Expert in Autistic Spectrum Disorders

Catching up with my reading 15 September 2004

eamonn clarke,
gp
cambs
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Re: Catching up with my reading

Oops! Astute readers will have noticed that the MRC funded study that i referred to in my last posting is now completed and published. It was the Lancet paper of last week by Smeeth et al which found no relationship between MMR and pervasive developmental disorders.
MMR vaccination and pervasive developmental disorders: a case-control study. Smeeth et al. Lancet 2004; 364: 963-69
Competing interests: gp, parent, immuniser

Two hundred tons of mercury per year, just to top up medical sphygmomanometers. 15 September 2004

Phillip J. Colquitt,
Technician and RN
Independent Comment
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Re: Two hundred tons of mercury per year, just to top up medical sphygmomanometers.

At least that was the figure I gave, in an e-letter to the editor of the Canadian Medical Journal last year, based on published reports in science journals[1].
With health care workers being major quicksilver (elemental mercury- HgO) users, polluters, and indifferent �exposers� of themselves and their clients, as applies to blood pressure machines, it is not at all surprising to find them defensive about all medical uses of mercury.
It may even be convenient for health care workers to focus on dental restorations, vaccine additives, even though they know that they are not being comprehensive in evaluating mercury exposure.
The problem with mercury probably starts in the science lab, where quicksilver has traditionally been used, and left in the hands of nerds who perhaps don�t understand the concept of personality, and thus the related concept of personality change. Causes of this change become non- issue.
[1] Phillip J. Colquitt (13 January 2003).Labeling All Sphygmomanometers. Canadian Medical Journal - Free and full text. Accessed 15 September 2004. http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/eletters/168/1/78#221
Competing interests: Mercury exposure

Things can hurt me 16 September 2004

Lucas McCarty,
Youth Worker
Harrogate area
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Re: Things can hurt me

I had previously believed that it was impossible to 'make' an Autistic, I still do; all Autistics are different but everyone of us has elements that make us all the same(same form of atypical implicit learning, most believe that's what Autism is). If a vaccine caused damage, the damage wouldn't be both so specific and so messy at the same time, if Mercury was harmful in such a small dose, wouldn't it gradually kill?
I did find it curious however that of all the other born Autistics I've seen and of all the vaccine Autistics I've seen, the latter groups seems to be entirely made up of low-functioners whilst the former, like myself, seem to be doing better.
There are some things my body will not tolerate even in the most miniscule amounts and the reaction is quite violent, but there are plenty of Autistics that don't feel a thing but may have intolerances to things I don't.
I'm sitting on the fence, but I would like to know if vaccines can or can't harm those who are born Autistic, I get the feeling that is what is happening. Children are born Autistic but the parent doesn't notice, then they react with a vaccine and have a regression. Has anyone looked into that possibility?
Competing interests: Autistic

Re: Things can hurt me 17 September 2004

Carol Johnston,
Carer
Carshalton, Surrey
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Re: Re: Things can hurt me

I was interested to read Lucas McCarthy's response. Its enlightening to hear the view of an autist themselves.
I have oftened wondered how an autist viewed the subject of vaccine induced autism.
The impression I get that many high functioning autists (Aspergers) do not consider their autism to be a disability - indeed many regard their autism as an intregral part of their makeup - which they would not be without. History appears to be littered with autists who have made outstanding contributions to mankind, ie Albert Einstein, Issac Newton etc. etc. - an autists ability to have a single mindedness about a certain topic can be a gift!
However at the opposite end of the spectrum are children like my son.
Maybe my children have a genetic pre-disposition to autism. Perhaps is it a part of the "sensitivity" that Mr McCarthy mentioned.
This combination of genetics and sensitivities make for a vulnerablility that leads to catastrophic regression caused by "environmental" trigger and can leave a child in a Dante's Nightmare existence unable to communicate and living in this world but not as part of it - reduced congnitive ability continually needing support and help to do even basic human functions.
My understanding is there are two types of autism. Classic and "late onset regressive" autism. The latter are often severe. My son exhibits many autistic traits but he also mimics behaviours similar to a little boy (of a close friend) who has severe cerebral palsy caused by bleed on the brain.
It seems autism is down to a number of reasons. Genetics , brain trauma, a serious viral infection, birth trauma, medical intervention and/or exposure to toxins.
I share Mr McCarthy's views in that he states:
"I did find it curious however that of all the other born Autistics I've seen and of all the vaccine Autistics I've seen, the latter groups seems to be entirely made up of low-functioners whilst the former, like myself, seem to be doing better."
My daughter was not severely affected as my son. Perhaps by virtue of her sex and a slightly different mixture of genetics? There do seem to be varying degrees of this "late onset" autism. The one thing they share is the regression and onset of physical and behavioural symptoms. Many of these children improve by a properly managed diet and removing foods which act as toxins to them (casein and gluten).
Maybe without MMR my son would have been a high functioning aspergers individual but because of his sensitive constitution the vaccines irritated his body to the point of a severe regression.
My understanding is that mercury is toxic in very small amounts and the symptoms of mecury poisioning are similar to severe autism.
Another query I have with autism is the appearance of clusters.
I live in Carshalton in St Helier, Wrythe and Wandle valley wards, there are 35 - ASD children on the "I Count" disability register in a very small geographic area. Looking at the map of the borough they appear to be in clusters. I know 5 children in my road alone (not on register) and two low functioning little boys in the road off of mine. Only one of these other children is on the Register. [page 24 of report]
On page 29 of the register if gives ASD/Aspergers as a general percentage of the population 0-19 years. For my borough, Sutton it says the following:
Sutton: Total no. of ASDs 114 - % of register registrations = 20.84 % of general population 0-19 years = 0.25.
Okay maths was never a strong point with me, but these statistics are saying that a quarter of the all children in sutton between ages of 0-19 years have ASDs and are on the register - is that only me that finds that alarming? And of course we have to remember the children that are not on the register.
If genetics were solely responsible for these childrens' ASDs, would they be in clusters? Or is it that Sutton is over diagnosing ASDs?
What is that these children have in common. Could they all perhaps be using the same surgeries?
I attach a link to the website to obtain a copy of the report. Perhaps someone else looking at the report could perhaps put my mind at rest that we do not have an epidemic of ASDs in my local area.
A copy of the report can be seen at:
http://www.registerservices.nhs.uk/sutton/suttonkidsrpt.php
Competing interests: Parent of 2 ASD kids

Re: Extremists 19 September 2004

Ruth E Acaster,
full-time mother
Worthing, West Sussex
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Re: Re: Extremists

Gosh, I'm sorry Dr Rumbold but I found your rapid response really amusing! I am a 'normal' parent, when my daughter was born I instinctively wanted to do my upmost to establish good health for her. Being of average intelligence and an inquisitive mind I questioned my health visitor when my daughter was due to have her first vaccinations. She provided insufficent information and so I took it upon myself to explore the subject. After thorough research I came to the conclusion that I would not allow her to be vaccinated.
The decisions I have made are well informed and if questioned I can calmly and confidently explain why I have not vaccinated my child. Am I an 'extremist' because I made a decision that is not the norm?
Competing interests: None declared

Re: Re: Extremists 20 September 2004

Tony Floyd,
Medical Student
Newcastle University
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Re: Re: Re: Extremists

Ruth Acaster recently made some valuable points:
> when my daughter was born I instinctively wanted to do my upmost to establish good health for her.
I believe that her head is very much screwed on correctly and that she under-sells herself by claiming to be of 'average intelligence.'
Not satisfied with the information from her health visitor she then stated that she:
> took it upon myself to explore the subject.
I am fascinated to know what sources she used to self-educate. I've been interested in this topic for many years, researching it during a Science degree and for many years prior to commencing a Bachelor of Medicine. Only the last of which seems to attract the label of 'well you must be part of a conspiracy' - but that's another story.
It is quite likely that she has read the same books and/or visited the same web sites that I have over the past 10 or so years. One that I am a fan of as I have found that the articles do support the points made is that of Dr Ed Friedlander. Although you'll find that even with the evidence sitting in front of you in the form of the original article there are many that will argue with you until they are black and blue in spite of the facts. So I'm not surprised that the Doctor you responded to used terms like 'extremists'.
I do not think it is right to call the Ruths of this world extreme or anything other than an appropriately concerned parent. If her health visitor failed to satisfy her quest for information then he or she should have at least directed her to some other source rather than let her leap head-first into to the sea of misinformation that is the internet or populist media.
She might like to review a web pages such as the one I've mentioned (1). I would encourage her to choose an article that is represented differently by two web sites seek out that article to truly make her own mind up. She may then view some of the many sources of information with an increasingly healthy scepticism.

***
References:
(1) http://www.pathguy.com/antiimmu.htm

Competing interests: None declared

Thimerosal Benifits 22 September 2004

Michael, F. Wagnitz,
Chemist
Madison,53715
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Re: Thimerosal Benifits

Thank you for discussing the article "Thiomersal doesn't cause developmental disorders" which was published by the American Academy of Pediatrics via their Journal "Pediatrics". The article says that chidren injected with thimerosal (50% organic mercury) are less hyper, more alert, have better fine motor skills and have more advanced speech. When I went to research this product for purchase, the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) said it causes "severe mental retardation in children", Extremely Toxic!". I double checked the spelling! Are you sure this product is good for children?
Competing interests: Father of daughter diagnosed with PDD-NOS

Another customized study 22 September 2004

Robert R. Bloch,
n/a
412 Lora Street, Neptune Beach, Florida 32266 USA
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Re: Another customized study

The idea that one must pare down so many subjects in order to achieve the "surprising" result suggests that there was an original finding that the authors could not bare.
In this latest study, for example we read:
"After adjustment for birth weight, gestation, gender, maternal education, parity, housing tenure, maternal smoking, breastfeeding, and ethnic origins....."
Parity? Oh, come now. Why does one adjust the subjects thus? Perhaps one might as well re-adjust this study for "cherry-picking" and find the original outcomes were quite different.
So much prejudice is likely to not serve any purpose other than creating another bombastic news article which in the future will be used in defense of the indefensible.
In light of the fact that thimerosal is finally being discontinued in the United Kingdom, and that the President of the United States is now, in fact, on the record supporting at least the removal of thimerosal from vaccines makes one question why such frivolous research is being conducted and propagated in the media.
This study for practical purposes is moot.
Competing interests: Father of an Autistic Child.

Re: Extremists 22 September 2004

C Johnson,
parent
LA9
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Re: Re: Extremists

Tony Floyd is interested to know which sources Ruth Acaster chose to self-educate. I can tell him mine: the personal testimony of parents who believe their children were damaged or killed by vaccines.
Noticeable is parents' reluctance to accept that vaccines hurt their children. They do not want to believe that by taking their children to clinics and holding them down for the needle, they played a part in their child's tragedy. It is the evidence of their experience which determines their belief.
Also noticeable is the earnest wish that they had not been so trusting of a mass vaccination programme which fails to treat their children as individuals; and the urgent desire to warn other parents of the dangers in blind acceptance of such a flawed approach.
I am also struck by the clarity and detail in their testimony. These people are not hysterics or fools.
Finally, I am struck by the little regard their highly significant experience receives. Their children's suffering is terribly inconvenient for the mass immunization programme. Better that they be discredited as "anti-vaccinists" and "militants". Better yet